College of Science

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We recognize and acknowledge that the University of Utah is located on the traditional and ancestral homelands of the Shoshone, Paiute, Goshute, and Ute tribes. The university recognizes the enduring relationships between many indigenous peoples and their traditional homelands.

David Pace 0:17

Hi, my name is David Pace and this is Pace Yourself, the University of Utah College of Science podcast and Wellness. Today, our guest is Reverend Cindy Solomon Klebba. She serves as the chaplain for the Spiritual Wellness Program here at the University of Utah. A historian, human rights advocate, minister and educator. She has served in ordained ministry for nearly three decades and holds a B.A. and an M.A. in History from the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs.

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 1:39

Welcome, Cindy. Thank you. Good to be here. 

 

David Pace 1:40

It’s really nice to have you here. So there are some program services from the website for the Wellness and Spiritual Wellness program that I wanted to just tick off really quickly. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 1:54

Sure. 

 

David Pace 1:55

One is finding community, connecting students with over 50 religious and spiritual groups, a sense of connection and purpose, which we’ll be talking a little bit more about in a minute. Spiritual care, and I’ll have you explain that in a minute as well, as well as emotional and moral dilemmas. Not that you broke her emotional and moral dilemmas, but rather how to manage those. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 2:21

Correct. 

 

David Pace 2:22

And then you also have a series of events that we can talk about as well. But before we move forward on that. So you’re working directly with students at the U  are your services available to staff and faculty as well? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 2:36

Yes, absolutely. If we want to help the student body, we need to help the staff and faculty as well. And healthy means, you know, all those different aspects of wellness that we talk about, you know, whether it’s emotional or mental or financial wellness or you just all those things. And spirituality, of course, is a component of that. And so, yes, we’re available to anybody that wants to walk in.  

 

David Pace 2:57

Excellent. So tell us a little bit about how you got into or involved in religious and spiritual programming.

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 3:14

So I am ordained in Metropolitan Community Churches when I was doing my educational work with them.

 

So been doing ministry stuff for a very, very long time and lots and lots of different places.  In terms of the university. I came here to do a Ph.D. in history. And you may know a couple of years ago we hired a new person over student wellness, Dr. Sherra Watkins, and I had seen her bio in one of the little blurbs that we have on campus, and I read that and I went, “Oh my goodness, I need to talk to this person.” And we started a conversation and things just sort of clicked. And it was like, you know, I have student I’ve been teaching for a for a long time on the campus since 2014, I think is when I first taught my first class. 

 

And every semester I just, I have students who are overwhelmed, they’re in pain and I’m like, we have to do something. Because the connection that I could see that they were missing was that spiritual component. And so she and I started a conversation. We looked at the spiritual in this program that we knew we wanted to do something with. And it sort of grew from there. We’re sort of formalizing it, getting it, you know, structured out and planned out right now, but are already doing a lot of things in terms of trainings and workshops since we’re doing wellness, that sort of thing. So it’s sort of an organically grown thing. Or if you’re one of those religious people, it’s like maybe God’s doing something. 

 

David Pace 4:59

Better check in with Her on that. So how do you feel it’s best to define spiritual wellness and what’s the difference between a religious affiliation and spiritual? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 5:10

Sure. Good questions. I think that’s one of the most common. But I think for me, the difference between spiritual and religious. Religion tends to be something that’s come from a tradition that’s been around for a while. There’s a series of doctrines or dogmas or beliefs that are more or less organized, right, depending on the group.

 

So spirituality is that thing that recognizes that there’s something beyond our individual self out there in the universe, whatever that is. Some people, you know, connect through nature. Some people connect through different religious practices like prayer or meditation or mindfulness. 

 

The wellness part of that, I think comes in with is your spirituality indeed connecting you? Because if it’s not, then maybe there’s something that we’re missing. So spiritual wellness is when you can be in that place where you can connect in healthy ways to identify your own values and your own beliefs and live by those in a way that’s authentic for you, that feeds your soul or your spirit or whatever it is that you believe exists. And does that in a way that you come away better, whatever that “better” is for you. I think everybody has to determine that for themselves. 

 

Hopefully that’s a little clearer than mud, because when you’re talking about these concepts that you can get in the weeds that stuff. But I think that that spiritual wellness component… I don’t know that that’s intrinsic. I don’t know that we develop that just sort of out of the air. And sometimes that’s the role that religion can play in teaching us how to develop religious practice or our spiritual practice. But I think you can certainly develop that without religion as well through all kinds of different things. So wellness, I think, is just like any other kind of wellness. Is it making you better then that’s probably a sign that it’s well. 

 

David Pace 7:30

And I think it’s worth mentioning that we started this podcast a year and a half ago. based on the dimensions of wellness that the National Institutes of Health have put out. Spiritual being one of them. But what we’ve quickly found out is that they’re very integrated and inform each other wildly as well as maybe more subtly as well. And I’m sure that you are faced with that all the time. I was wondering what some of the main questions or concerns that your clients bring to you about this issue of religion and spirituality or spirituality and wellness? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 8:15

Right. I think the first is how do I find it? How do I find spirituality in my life? That’s often the most difficult part because they have to learn to define it for themselves. So helping students or staff or whoever is coming in to navigate what is your spiritual life? Sometimes people have one and they don’t even know it, right? They’re doing this thing where they get up every morning and they’re being grateful or they’re writing in a journal or whatever. It’s like, okay, well, let’s look at that in the context of spirit. Are you doing this because it makes you feel connected to something? Then, bingo, right? You’re on the right path already. 

 

I think there are some unique things about being here in Utah and one of those is that for many people, spirituality has been so conflated with religion that for people who have been traumatized by religion, and I’m not speaking about the LDS Church here, I’m speaking about our society, there’s a lot of religious trauma in our society. 

 

And unfortunately, what that means is for many people, because they’ve conflated those two things, when they’ve been hurt by a particular issue or a group or whatever they tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and go, Well, then I don’t believe anything. Well, actually, even atheists have a spirituality. So it’s helping people to redefine what spirituality is for them that can give them actually a place to heal from the trauma. 

 

So in a strange sort of way, spirituality can heal religious trauma and then you can make a choice, a really informed choice. Okay, Do I want to be just “spiritual”? Do I want that spirituality to take place in the in the context of a religion that maybe I can approach in a healthier way now? In fact, we’re going to talk about doing a religious trauma panel coming up really soon, because I think that’s just critical. 

 

I think that that’s probably honestly, at this point, the number one thing that happens for those conversations that I’ve been having is that people are like, but I don’t know if I want anything to do with it because it’s this. And I’m like, okay, well, let’s look at this in a different context. 

 

Can you find that connection? Can you find that community? Can you find that connection to something and separate that from the religion for now, in order to heal from whatever you need to heal from it? And then come back to it in a different way and say, okay, this is for me or this isn’t, but at least it’s an informed and healthy choice at that point. 

 

David Pace 10:43

You’re not just being reactive. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 11:01

If I can use an analogy, the one that I frequently use several years ago, Volkswagen got caught. Their cars were polluting a lot more than people realized. When that happened, people who had been loyal, you know, Volkswagen drivers were understandably hurting and upset, but they didn’t stop driving. They might have chosen another car, just jumped as right. But they didn’t stop driving. Right. And so my take on that is if you have been hurt by a faith tradition or a religion, you don’t have to start you don’t have to start walking spiritually. You can get in another vehicle and maybe that other vehicle is religious and maybe it’s not. 

 

But, yeah, I mean, there are other there are other ways to get around spiritually in a healthy way. And then once you do that, you can start going, “Oh, there’s a whole lot of lots out there with a whole lot of vehicles. And and I’ll find the one that’s right for me, but I don’t have to just, you know, walk everywhere.”

 

David Pace 12:33

Well, there is a big movement, you know, the new atheist. And that’s out there. I’m thinking of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. But even Sam Harris, if I might remind us all, after he wrote his manifesto of disbelief ended up writing a book about spirituality. 

 

So you have to wonder how the high priest of atheism, unless Dawkins is that, of course he’s a scientist, so we like to spin him around here. But, you know, it’s I haven’t read Sam Harris’s book, but I thought it was kind of ironic and kind of telling that maybe we need to transcend a little bit in the conversation and talk about, you know, redefine if you will, some of the terms that we have been batting about for a millennia. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 13:31

Absolutely. I mean, we so my personal walk, I have a religious walk. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 13:39

I come from a Christian background. I left Christianity for a while. I got really, really ticked off with God and said, Fine, I’ll just go be a polytheist or whatever. 

 

Actually, had we had conversations in my philosophy class when I was a student at Rogers State University back then it was Rogers State College, we had students who were not even in our class come to our class to hear my philosophy professor and I debate because he was a Methodist minister. So here I am with this biblical background but not following it, and he’s following it heavily and we’re just talking. It was hilarious, actually. But through that, you have. 

 

David Pace 14:16

Did you have to wear helmets? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 14:17

No, not usually. But there were some interesting things left on the windshields of the cars, you know. But I think the thing for me was I was able to come actually to a much deeper faith because I left it so that when I came back, it was an informed faith. It was, okay, God, I’ll stop running, because part of that was running away from my call to ministry. At the same time, it’s like a lot of things. Things were going on, but. 

 

David Pace 14:43

So you really felt early on a call. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 14:46

Oh, I have my favorite pictures of myself. I’m three years old and I’m holding my grandfather’s Bible and I’m wearing his robe and I’m preaching oh three Like, so obviously there was something going on very early for me. I also grew up in a tradition, though, that didn’t allow women to preach, so that was something I had to struggle with, was like, What do I believe about that? And came to understand that that was somebody else’s rule, not God’s. 

 

And so and so again, having come back from that, that wandering sort of thing in the desert that many of us do, came back with a much stronger belief. I am a Christian. That’s who I am and struggle with that term sometimes because of the connotations that go with it. I prefer to say I’m just one of those Jesus people, you know? 

 

At the same time, I know that my journey isn’t everybody’s journey, and that’s okay too. I don’t think that there’s one that’s more valuable and or better than anyone else’s. I mean, if you try something on that doesn’t work for you, then why would you keep wearing it? Right? So pick your path, and that’s up to the individual to know. And hopefully, hopefully what I can do in my current role is not. I certainly won’t tell anyone what their path is. I have no power to do that. I certainly don’t have the expertise to do that because I can’t see into their soul. Right? But what I hopefully can do is facilitate them exploring those paths to find out where they’re supposed to be walking. And I think if I can do nothing more than start them on that path, something far more wise and powerful than me will take over.

 

David Pace 17:27

So here’s a conundrum for you, maybe. Okay. It sounds to me like there’s one thing you’re probably not very tolerant of, and that’s exclusivity.

 

True. Okay, So what happens when you are coaching or mentoring a young soul and they are souls to you, it sounds like. And they start drifting into fundamentalism or exclusivity that that’s got to be, I mean, I’m sure you do the right thing because you’re a minister and you’re trained to do that. But talk a little bit about that because especially now with the political landscape fused to evangelical Christianity, it appears, but also even locally, Mormonism and even some Jewish traditions: That’s the central tenet, it seems like, is that we’re right and you’re wrong. So how do you navigate that? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 18:26

That’s challenging in a couple of different ways. The first thing I would note is that in terms of where we are in the United States, and I teach history, so I can go there with whoever wants to go there. We were not founded as a Christian nation. There is, I mean, Roger Williams, one of our heroes, who founded Rhode Island is founded on religious toleration. This idea that people should be able to pursue whatever their religion is, that’s the core of who we are as Americans. And it’s and it’s part of that our Constitution for a reason. 

 

So I think the first thing is to help people understand the difference. Are we talking about religion as a faith practice or are we talking about civil religion? And those are different things, right? For those people who are talking about what they believe. Right. Who may come from that fundamentalist background, What I would say to them is let’s talk about that. 

 

If you take the 100 people sitting in a fundamentalist religion, I don’t care whether it’s Judaism or Christianity or whatever, and you ask them what they believe, you’re going to come up with a hundred different answers because regardless of the fact that they may have doctrines in common, when you get to details in people’s personal lives, there are differences. Well, once you’ve done that, now you’re talking about arbitrary lines. So you believe 99% of the same things, but not 100? So what’s the 99? Where’s that 1% is going to be different, right? So we’re already talking about an arbitrariness to even fundamentalism. 

 

I think the second thing I would say is if you believe that it’s your call to convert other people to lead them to Christ is the lingo is right. Why are you doing that? Are you doing that because you want to gain political power which will bankrupt you, spiritually. But spiritually it will bankrupt you. Or are you doing that because you really believe that that’s a call from Jesus Christ and that you want people to share in that salvation or whatever. That motivation will determine which way you go. Because if you want to do that in a positive way for a good reason, you really believe Jesus wants you to do that. That’s motivated out of love. 

 

Once we have that as the fundamental starting place, I think I think right now what we have is we have people starting from the left on the right. That’s the wrong place to start. The starting place is in the center. Let’s start in the middle with what we have in common, because if we start there and then we start to see differences, then it’s like, well, okay, that’s a little different. But we’re still here in the middle. 

 

I believe we have in this country, despite all the contrary media stuff, I think we have 80% of people in the messy, mucky middle. They want to get along. They want to have good lives. They want to have lives of meaning and purpose and peace and all those things. I think that’s where most people are. And if we start from that premise, then, yes, you may have a fundamentalist belief. Okay, that’s fine. If that works for you, good for you. 

 

The person next to you might have a different belief. And because we’ve already determined that, you know, not everybody’s 100% on this stuff, right? Then maybe that’s okay. I mean, is that a threat to you? I think I think the biggest question becomes is, are you following a particular path out of fear, which for many, many people is the case, whatever their tradition, right? If you’re following a path out of fear, that is very limiting and ultimately it is that fear that will lead to spiritual isolation and disconnection. 

 

And that’s a very it’s a very sad place to be. It’s also a dangerous place to be. 

 

David Pace 22:33

I was just going to say disconnection is something that I wanted to talk about. And because it’s more directly related to maybe an actionable item in right in our lives today to become more spiritually. Well, but I sent you this article from The Atlantic. It’s the cover story.r I think it was “The Antisocial Century” by Derek Thompson. And he says some interesting things about how we have become so disconnected and solo acts. He calls us secular monks, which I thought you might get a kick out of. Yes. But he talks about how technology is actually changing our conscious experience, and that screens occupy more than 30% of our kids and teenagers waking right time. Right? In 2000, Robert Putnam wrote the book “Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community.” And since that time, the average amount of time that Americans have spent hosting or attending social events have declined another 32%. Right? We are isolating like crazy. And it’s not just because of the pandemic. Although that didn’t help. 

 

And then one last thing that I wanted to reference was Andrew Taggart, who had just five years ago, he’s a philosopher and writer, describes this luxurious form of a modern monasticism, especially among young men. Yeah. And that alone time that they do have is guess what? Done in front of a screen. Right. 

 

So this article talks about different rings of social connection, the very intimate ones that we have with our family and friends; people that we have a similar affinity for, maybe a beliefs, some beliefs. But then there’s this missing middle ring he talks about called The Village. And it’s familiar, but not intimate. We used to know these neighbors and people of our village, well … now we don’t. And I wanted you to talk a little bit about that, because religion, for better or for worse, has played a role in connecting people. And one of the big reasons that a lot of people don’t want to leave their faith tradition—I’m thinking of my own religion of childhood, of Mormonism. They don’t want to lose their community. 

 

David Pace 25:00

Right. And so but, you know, there’s religion is also play a powerful role. The social gospel at the turn of the last century. You know and making it not just about personal belief but making a better community, a better society. That’s how we got rid of child labor law, right? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:18

Civil rights movement. 

 

David Pace 25:19

Yes. So it’s. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:20

Religiously-based. 

 

David Pace 25:21

Yeah. So can you talk to me about your connection right now? Because what I was going to ask before you use the word disconnection. Yes. Was that you know, what are some of the things that you do for students in particular that come to you? What are the crises and how are they related to disconnection with society?  

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:42

I think, yeah, let’s define a couple of terms. There’s there is a difference, I think, between being lonely and being alone. I love going to movies by myself. No distractions, all that stuff, right? As opposed to loneliness, which is this feeling of disconnection, this feeling of isolation. Right? And this idea, the further distinction between isolation versus solitude. Isolation is being inside this little bubble where we are disconnected from something else, from other things, whatever that is, whether it’s people or spirit, right? 

 

Being in solitude does not mean being alone. I can be in solitude. My favorite thing in the world is to go to the beach. My soul lives in the ocean, so I go visit it once in a while. When I am on that beach, I am in solitude, often as I walk alone, and the least alone ever because I connect with my spirit there, Right? Some people do that in the forest where in Utah everybody looks at the mountains, right? Or down south, Right? 

 

So you can be in solitude and yet connected with something else. And that prepares you for a further connection to a person or a group or community. Right? So they’re very different things. Isolation cuts us off. Solitude allows us to reconnect. So there is that. For many students who are feeling isolated, who are feeling disconnected, the first thing to do—I don’t even think the first thing to do is overtly spiritual, and I say overtly because it is spiritual, but we don’t think of it that way—The first thing to do is find connection with other people. 

 

And strangely enough, I don’t think that’s about going. I mean, I love bowling. It’s not about the bowling club. It’s not about the whatever the first connection is, what can you do to help somebody else? 

 

If you can go out and help somebody or whatever, and it can be tiny, maybe you’re going up to Primary Children’s and you’re like, Can I read a story to some of the kids? Maybe, for you, it’s going to a retirement home and sitting down and talking with one of those people who speaking of isolation, right. The way that we warehoused our elderly is that’s a whole that’s a whole other podcast. The ways that we intentionally separate people. Right. If you can go out and do that, you’ve done two things. You’ve made a connection, but you’ve also helped to explore your purpose. And it what it does is it starts you thinking, it starts you feeling as well, so that you can start to sense, “Oh, this speaks to me, or this does not.” And that’s fine, because you’ve got to rule things out too, right? 

 

If you go out and you start to help somebody else, you are doing so many different things at once that you’re not even aware of. You’re making the world a better place, you’re making the room, you’re in a better place, you’re making connections with people and you’re exploring what’s important to you, what your own values are. 

 

All of that is laying the groundwork for your own spiritual walk. And then you can start to say, “Oh, that was kind of cool. What does that mean? Why do I feel that when I do this? Why did I like that? Why did that make me so joyful?” Right. “Maybe I should look at that?” Right? And so then you can really start that process of exploration spiritually. 

 

Now, as you do that, it’s full circle. It comes back around, it’s like, Oh, these are my values, this is my spiritual stuff. Who else shares that? And now I can connect with a spiritual community. And I’m not talking about a religious again, right. But a community of people who share your values, who want to make—I don’t want to say the room a better place. I’ve recently corrected my thinking. I think making the world a better place is too overwhelming. But if I can walk in and just make the room I’m in better. I’ve done what I need to do and it’s not overwhelming. I can do that room. That’s fine. I can do that. Right? So I think. 

 

David Pace 29:23

Sometimes just by opening the door for someone. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 29:25

Absolutely. I was walking here.  In fact, I just turned off the ramp on the sidewalk and a young man is walking by and he’s college pace. Right. So walking to his class and he barely slows down as he bends over to pick something up off the ground. And I don’t know if it was like a glove somebody had dropped. So I didn’t see what it was. He barely even slowed down. But he made that spot better by taking that tiny, tiny fraction of a second to pick up something that was litter. 

 

We have this idea that we have to fix everything right now. And number one, we can’t. And number two, if we try to do it, we’re actually going to go backwards. I can’t do everything. I’m not even supposed to do everything. Because if I’m trying to do something that’s not my calling, I’m interfering with the person whose calling it is. So finding my own space, my own path, right? That helps me to know where I’m supposed to be. It gets me out of the way. Blocking somebody else is supposed to be in their path, and it means I’m much more effective at wherever I’m at. 

 

So I think that that getting out of ourselves and saying, okay, let me start here. Let me just pick one thing a month, a week, whatever our schedules are, let me do one thing to help somebody else. And if I do that one thing, I have started the path toward spirituality and spiritual wellness and spiritual exploration. And that will inevitably lead me to a community because other people out there want that too. And I think that’s when we see this isolation phenomenon. … Oh man, our students are starving for connection. And I think more and more of them are coming around to this idea that that little box that we hold in our hands all the time. 

 

This screen I know. Right? Or that screen, it’s like it’s given this false sense of connection, I have more and more students are actually turning it off. And I think there’s a lot of hope in that. I mean, I have one, too, have smartphone, you know. I’m just as prone as anybody else to like, Oh, I clicked on that and I shouldn’t have because it’s 10:00 at night and I got to go to bed and it’s like 1030 now, right? We’re all prone to it. But I think when we put it down and literally, I would love to have students do this as an experiment, be in the library and put down your phone and just say “hi” to three people. Just say hi as they walk by, whatever it is. I kind of want to start this new trend where everybody is waves everybody in their car and acknowledges that there’s a human being out there. Right? I think it changes us. I really do. 

 

We know scientifically that the brains of young people are different now. They’re they’re they’re called digital natives and they’ve grown up with the screens and it’s literally changed their brains and the neural connections and pathways that they make. They’re different than mine. I’m older than that. So it means we have to relate differently. And it also means that we have to acknowledge that those changes, convenient as they may be, may not be good for us. And I think, again, I think there really is a lot of hope out there that young people are craving that connection with people beyond that little tiny screen. So I’m an eternal optimist. 

 

David Pace 31:40

Can you give us an example of maybe somebody that you have counseled who is struggling with an emotional and moral dilemma and how you’ve helped that student navigate those spiritual aspects of their decision? 

 

Sure. how do you make a difference when it seems like you’re just one person where you can’t do much. And one of the things that that we have talked through as a as group discussion is about how we spend our money. Where do I spend my money? Do I spend my money with an organization or a company or a service who takes that money and does something positive, or do I spend my money in a way that reflects my actual values? Do I do I contribute to society in a way through my purchasing even? Right. Got I got to buy stuff. Do I contribute through my purchases to a company that honors its workers, that pays fairly to this fair trade, that that doesn’t pollute, that it does all those things. And yeah, that takes some footwork, right, to research. There’s an app for that. There is. I have it on my phone. Speaking of those little screens, right? Yeah, there are those things out there. Right. So if we can I think if we do that, the interesting thing is we may be one person doing that, but wow, it doesn’t take many of us doing that at once. And suddenly you do see a difference, right? I mean, 

 

again, historians, right. We know boycotts work. We did it to the British, Right. We know that those things were people were you know, women were spinning the home cloth instead of buying stuff from the British. There’s so many different levels on which we can be empowered to truly make the room around us and the larger rooms better. I think the lie that we’re told is that we’re powerless, and we’re not. We are so powerful. And when we come together and share connection and community and shared values, we’re powerful beyond belief. 

 

David Pace 36:22

Yeah. I just wanted to add to that that the spiritual component to what you just suggested is not only social justice. But it also when you pick up that that can at one aluminum can. Yeah. And put it in the recycling. I’ll tell you why I do that. Okay. Because it tells me who I am. Yes. That’s yes, that cracks open this internal conversation with me about why I do that and because I know that it’s not going to save the earth right. In that moment or even 2500 years from now. But it does tell me who I am. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 36:56

Absolutely. And that’s sort of the key, right, is finding out what are my values, How do I know what my values are? I know what my values are by what I do. And that also means that I can then choose intentionally to create my values. So I think we’re incredibly powerful people. And I think that’s that’s the secret, right? That people don’t want us to know We’re powerful. We can change the room and I can change the room. There, and you can change that room. And down the hall, that guy’s going to change that room. And over there in the elevator, that woman’s going to get on there and change that elevator. All of us together have now changed an entire building. It just grows from. So. Yeah. 

 

David Pace 37:44

Powerful stuff. Really, it is. Really appreciated our conversation. And I think that these services like I said, are formally available here at the University of Utah. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 37:56

Absolutely. 

 

David Pace 37:57

Come see me particular. Cindy Solomon Klebba. And I pronounced that correctly? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:02

You did it’s spiritualwellness@Utah.edu. If you want to email us. 

 

David Pace 38:06

And we will put that on the page. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:09

Awesome. 

 

David Pace 38:09

Well, so just to sign off here too, just as a reminder, Cindy is currently completing her Ph.D. in history at the U. And she also teaches courses in women’s history, U.S. history and gender studies.  Her ministry experience spans several states, and she’s spoken at numerous rallies and conferences championing social change and legal rights for oppressed communities. She lives in Utah with her wife of 29 years and their daughter, who is currently attending the U. 

 

David Pace 38:44

Thank you, Cindy, for being with us. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:45

Thank you so much. All right.