Listen Here: 

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Introduction:

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Transcript:

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David Pace:

Hi, my name is David Pace and this is Pace yourself, a University of Utah College of Science Podcast on wellness. Today, we’re talking about physical strength and health through resistance training and other related components of physical wellness. Our guest today is Jordan Marks a personal trainer at the Salt Lake Sports Center adjacent to the University of Utah here, Jordan has a Bachelor of Science in Kinesiology from UMass Amherst, and he’s worked as a personal trainer for 14 years. Welcome Jordan, thank you. 

 

Jordan Marks:

Thank you for having me, David.

 

David Pace:

It’s really nice to have you here. So I actually met you, as you know, I don’t have to tell you this, but I’m telling my audience when I was working out of the Salt Lake complex, sports complex, and so in order to audition you, I was actually tracking you around the building, listening to you to make sure that you that Boston accent of yours wasn’t

 

Jordan Marks:

Yeah try to subdue it a little bit 

 

David Pace:

Yeah. But no, I was impressed with the work that you were doing with a variety of people there, and over the months that I noticed that your services were available, so I thought that you would be a good candidate for us to talk about wellness. Just a little background. We have been doing this for about a year and a half, and the first year we talked about the different dimensions of wellness as established by the National Institutes of Health and physical wellness is, of course, prominent in that and it was also the easiest one to start out with, because everybody wants to get fit and everybody wants to feel good physically. So let’s talk a little bit. First off, can you tell me what degree in kinesiology entails and how you ended up as a personal trainer? 

 

Jordan Marks:

Yeah, so kinesiology, or exercise science, is basically the study of movement. I kind of got into that because they really feel the engineering was for me and some of the arts, arts weren’t really my path. So I got into it, because I kind of grew up my whole life playing sports and being outside and active. So it kind of seemed like a good segue into exercise science. My plan originally was to go to school for physical therapy, where, when I graduated, right before I graduated, I worked as an aide in a physical therapy office where we worked with all kinds of people, rehabbing shoulders, knees, all that kind of stuff. But it got a little tedious for me. I feel like it was, you know, a lot of people, if they’re young and able, they’re there to fix a shoulder, and the second you finish those shoulder exercises, and they’re good, they’re discharged. You don’t do anything else with them. You’re not working the core, working the legs. And then a lot of people, if they’re older, don’t necessarily want to be there. They don’t want to do these exercises. So it can be, it can be kind of, I don’t know, it’s discouraging. When you know they don’t seem to getting better, they’re getting annoyed with you. It’s they don’t want to do this stuff. So I kind of got a side job, personal training at a local gym, where some of the physical therapy, really helped. I could learn how to help someone with shoulder issues, knee issues, but in the meantime, work the core. Work the legs, work the other muscles that they wanted to do to get stronger on top of rehabbing that specific thing. So kind of fell into the personal training, and really liked the ability to make my own hours and not be as much of a nine to five as some of the physical therapy was, and a lot of physical therapy was also the paperwork. You know, a lot of it is based off your insurance. Is your insurance gonna cover this? Or am I discharged because I don’t have enough insurance? And you’re filling out a lot of paperwork, and you don’t quite have that with the personal training, where you can kind of get a lot of people who are coming because they want to, so that helps. 

 

David Pace:

You’re already, they’re already at second base

 

Jordan Marks:

Exactly, a little bit of motivation. It’s not so much a force because they can’t walk, or they can’t they have a frozen shoulder or something.

 

David Pace:

Although I did notice that you work with elderly folks that maybe have been discharged from physical therapy. So we’ll talk about that in a minute. So just to kind of lay the groundwork here, what are the true what are the benefits of resistance training? And we could talk more than resistance training, but how does it compare to other forms of physical training and fitness, for example, like cardio.

 

Jordan Marks:

Resistance training is extremely important for a lot of reasons. You know, people come to the gym. A lot of come because it’s I want to gain muscle or lose weight, but there’s so many benefits. Especially once you start picking up weights that people can overlook. So they don’t always, uh, they don’t always think about the, you know, endorphin release when you leave the gym. You know, you don’t have people come in saying, I’m here to increase my mitochondria density. That’s something that resistance training does for you. You know, the powerhouse of yourself, the powerhouse of your cell, is mitochondria, but there’s so many other benefits for balance, for all these things that we all need as we as we age and get older, a lot of people, you know, associate cardio. Cardio is great. It’s great for your heart, great for the lungs. But a lot of people associate that with, I’m going to do cardio because I want to lose weight. Well, you know, you hop on a machine. I don’t know how, you would use your machines, but if you hop on and have a great workout and burn 1000 calories. That’s, that’s a pretty good workout. It’s 3500 calories to burn one pound of fat. Just to put that in perspective of someone on a cardio machine all day, or for an hour, I should say, and it’s, they get off and it kind of stops. It’s, yeah, great for your heart, but if you’re trying to lose fat or gain muscle, you’re it’s not necessarily  the end all be all that everyone thinks it is. So when you’re lifting weights, getting stronger, working the muscles, you’re burning a lot more calories. And then the next day, when you’re sore and those muscles are rebuilding, you’re continuing to burn calories. Then once you have the muscle, muscle burns calories. So the resistance training can really help with kind of just be a big part of the whole package deal, which is honestly eating, resistance training, and then cardio is kind of a good cherry on top that you can throw in if some people don’t have the time, you know, some people associate that cardio with, I gotta be for an hour on that elliptical, on that treadmill, on that row machine 

David Pace: 

In the proper garb, clothing. So it’s a retail opportunity. 

 

Jordan Marks:

Yeah, exactly, too yeah the Lulu Lemon everywhere. Yeah, spend a lot of money for the nice clothes. Yeah, you see my nice sweats, the viewer can’t but there’s holes in my sweat pants. 

 

David Pace:

So lest we forget it, it’s also good for bone density, yes, and not necessarily. Cardio is not necessarily something that’s premium for that. 

 

Jordan Marks:

Cardio can still be, uh, when you you need, you need, um, the correct word here, you need them, weight bearing compression. So when you run, that’s weight bearing compression. Okay, basically, what happens when you’re running, um, you’re putting a little extra weight into your legs. And what happens is the bones, your femur, your TIB, your fib, they kind of bend a little bit as you run because of the extra pressure, and your body goes, Oh, no, the bones bending send calcium helps your bones become stronger, and that is what you do get a lot more in resistance training, even saying as basic as you know, exercise, like a farmer’s carry that’s walking with weight, that’s a little less impact through the joints, but the bones are getting that same benefit. Because if you’re walking with a pair of 10 pound dumbbells, every step you take is going to be 10, 20 pounds heavier, those bones are going to that same thing of someone that’s running. But as far as osteoporosis on an elliptical or a row machine, or swimming, all great cardio exercises that helps the joints, because it’s, it’s more of a flowing you get away from that weight-bearing compression and get into more of a gliding motion. That’s, again, better for your joints, steps away a little bit from the bone density. 

 

David Pace:

So it’s funny, we should be talking about resistance training, because I had my, I just changed doctors, my primary care physician, and went in to see her, actually just in December, and I was really proud of the fact that I was able to tell her that I swim a mile every week at least once. Hurrah for Dave. And she looked at me, and she’s, you know, young enough to be my daughter at this point, but she looked at me, and she said, you need to do resistance training that’s more important than your swimming at this point in your 63- year-old life. And I was like, kind of pouting about that, because I wanted her to say, wow, you’re swimming a full mile. Good for you, you know, what’s your intervals? And are you doing the flip turn? And blah, blah, blah. So I’ve taken her up on that, you know, because she was, she was looking at my weight, of course. And.

 

Jordan Marks:

Um, but you know, the whole BMI thing, So BMI doesn’t really take into account muscle, muscle density, because it’s basically your height and your weight, yeah. So they can take a running back in the NFL and say he’s obese, yeah, because he’s, you know, 

 

David Pace:

I was told I was obese, 

 

Jordan Marks:

510, 220, you know, that’s that, you know, they probably consider that obese, and that’s their some of the best shape of their life because of the muscle. So, um, so, yeah, your um calipers can be what’s called a skin fold test. Yeah, that’s a one where you pinch certain sites on the body. Um, still, a good one, still room for error. There’s a lot of different ones. One of the best, maybe the university here has it, is that can be like a hydrostatic weighing tank. That’s one that really takes away, um, room for error, because you’re, you’re basically like submerged, you know. So it’s, it’s not … the pinching. I used to do that, and when I was in college. So there’s better options. But yeah, to go back to the original thing, the BMI doesn’t it’s good for the sedentary regular population, because it kind of, if you’re just average guy coming off the street, don’t do much workouts or exercise too much. It can probably give you a pretty good indicator of, hey, I weigh this much, and I’m, yeah, you know, that’s probably not very healthy. Or you can also be too thin. That’s, that’s another thing can be, um, you know, people can be too thin, where, internally, that going back to that bone density and that osteoporosis, especially with women who are much more prone to it, they might look fantastic with this small frame and what everyone wants to see. And it’s, it’s not the best. You know, as far as internally, their body has no fat to survive on. And it’s, it’s, yeah, not, not great, that end either. 

 

David Pace:

So there’s fat to survive on. But then getting back to muscle, muscle is a, is an engine. It’s burning. It’s, it’s metabolizing, I guess. And that’s really what you’re kind of gunning for, is more muscle mass that for the purposes of your metabolism. Is that correct? 

 

Jordan Marks:

Yep. And with if you go to the gym for a long time, or not even a long time, you start going to gym, and you put on muscle. If you put on about 10 pounds of lean muscle, you really wouldn’t notice that through your body, because that’s why it’s lean muscle. It’s much smaller than fat.  Just having 10 pounds of lean muscle added onto your body, your resting metabolic rate will burn about 3500 calories a week doing nothing. And the reason that number sounds familiar because that’s what it takes to burn one pound of fat. So that’s where it kind of comes full circle. Of you’re working out, you’re gaining that lean muscle. You’re looking better, looking more toned, looking more cut, whatever you’re going for. And in the meantime, just having that muscle is helping to burn fat on top of your metabolism and in what you burn during your workout, so a lot more calories. 

 

David Pace:

So you can not feel guilty about watching Netflix every night with a bowl of popcorn. That’s right. That’s right. So what is the advantage of having a personal trainer? What can someone expect from a personal trainer, whether it’s you or someone else in the profession? What’s the best practice and what can someone again, the question why? Why a personal trainer? 

 

Jordan Marks: 

I think one of the biggest things is just learning the correct way to do things, and having someone watch your form, watch kind of the things you’re doing, and make sure you’re doing them correctly, because sure you’ve seen this too, you go to a gym, and there’s a lot of people doing things that look dangerous. Look they might be the biggest guy in the gym or the biggest girl in the gym, but it doesn’t always mean they’re doing the right things. And it’s you see that a lot, and I see a ton at the gym of people going and just kind of spinning the wheels. The goal is to continue to get stronger while you go to the gym and make it worth your time and effort, because you already doing the hardest part, which is getting to the gym. You know, that is not, yeah, so I’m so a personal trainer, and that’s another thing that helps you with is that I’m trying to think of the right word, but that kind of you have an obligation, you know, you literally pay for a session. You know, I have a policy with my clients that I can, I can be lenient on sometimes, but it’s a kind of a 24 hour cancelation policy. So they know that. So if it’s an early morning and they wake up and, you know, they’re just not quite feeling it that day, if they weren’t coming to see me, there’s a good chance they’d blow it off. You know, but they know, hey, I already, already paid Jordan. I’m I lose this, this money, this, this time, if I, if I don’t go in and use my session, and then almost, I’d say, nine out of 10 times when they leave, they feel a lot better. You know, they come in, they do a workout, even if it might have been a day where they were a little lethargic or not feeling great. We do a good workout. We can take it easy sometimes, you know, depending if they’re really feeling that, you know, tired or whatever it is, but, um, they at least came, got the, you know, got the muscles moving, got everything loosened up, and tend to feel better when they leave. And again, there’s a, there’s a pretty good chance that if, if it was just up to them to go that day, there’s, there’s always, there’s always an easy excuse to stay in bed, especially these cold days.

 

David Pace:

Well, it does elevate your mood, your exercise. So there’s some mental wellness things going on and emotional I think that are intricately connected to what you’re doing or not doing with your body. So are you’re not a drill sergeant? 

 

Jordan Marks:

No, I try not to be. I try not to be, yeah. 

 

David Pace:

So you’re not a drill sergeant. And so what could you expect for the first time with with a personal trainer? How do you assess what someone needs? I’m sure you ask what they want to do. 

 

Jordan Marks:

That’s, that’s usually the first thing is, sit down a talk of just what’s, what are your goals? You know, that’s, that’s why it’s personal training. Everyone’s different, everyone’s got their own goals. You know, a lot of people associate, oh, they come in because New Year’s resolutions, you know, that’s always a big one. The gym gets real busy right around New Year’s. 

 

David Pace:

Thank goodness we just got out of January, right? 

 

Jordan Marks:

Well, it’s, I find that’s not always the case, because, especially for people that are coming for training, a lot of people have different, you know, goals, where some people are, you know, I am getting married. I want to look great in this time frame when my wedding is and I’m going to be in a dress, or I’m, I just had my first grandson, I want to be able to get down on the ground and play with them. And right now, my knees are aching every time I get up and down. Some people, the doctor just tells them, hey, listen, you, you know, you got high blood pressure, you got this, you got that. You really need to start to start to incorporate this kind of what you said, your doctor said, with the resistance training. 

 

David Pace:

So, uh, so it’s, did you get a kickback for that? By the way, sorry, didn’t to interrupt.

 

Jordan Marks:

 No. So yeah, it’s, uh, so it’s a little different for everyone to get in the gym, and then once they’re there, and they kind of tell me their goals a lot of times. I’ll start with a little, um, a little fitness test, little upper body, lower body, and a core exercise, just to see where they are. Some people sit there and say, Hey, I’m in the worst shape my life. And we do these tests, and they’re looking great, you know, they’re the numbers are really high for what they’re, whatever tests we’re doing, whether it’s a basic push up or a VO2 max test, which is kind of your kind of aerobic intake on a bicycle, or your breathing, basically. And then some people, it’s, you look at them, and they’re a young individual, and they just haven’t really worked out much. So the tests are like, Wow, man, you are. You know, I wouldn’t necessarily say this, but yeah, there’s some room for improvement. Let’s put it that way. 

 

So, uh, so that kind of helps get everything started. And then we just, we go from there. So it’s, uh, again, there’s always the questions of, what are your goals? Some people have always had strong legs. I’m a big hiker. I find my upper body’s kind of, um, been on the downslope for a while now, or vice versa. So everyone’s, everyone’s a little bit different with their goals. And that’s kind of what can separate a good trainer versus a bad trainers. Like any field, there’s, you know, kind of a little bit of everything, where it’s listening to the people, making sure, you know, you make sure they’re all cleared medically. You know, there’s no glaring thing from a doctor that says, “Don’t do this, don’t do that,” and then just kind of give them a good push in the right direction, help them get started. 

 

David Pace:

So it sounds like we’re talking about both the science and an art here. Part of it is interpersonal relationships, I’m sure and so it’s not that you’re not being systematic in a scientific way, as if you will, but you’re also probably just through a conversation, figuring out what’s going to help this person the most where their sticking points are maybe. Where you need to give them a little bit more aggressive push, yes, while sometimes you need to back off a little bit 

 

Jordan Marks:

Exactly, and then it’s and again, everyone’s different with that. Where I have some people I see three times a week, and they’re on that hour break from work, and from the start of the hour to the end of the hour, they’re Go, go, go. Other people love the chat. They know I moved here to, snowboard and ski. So they know, if they want to break they bring up, so how’s the snow pattern looking? And I’ll talk for several minutes, and they know they just got me a little loop, or they can catch their breath and breathe before I go. Hey, why are we not doing this exercise again? So, so everyone’s a little bit different. Yeah, with, um, some people are, are again, I see them once, once or twice a week. Other people, it’s once every other week, just to keep some refreshers in mind, and hopefully they’re doing the stuff on their own that’s, that’s the goal is to practice things like, not just with when they’re with me, but to be able to implement those at the gym, at home, or at another gym if they’re, you know, on vacation or something.

 

David Pace:

Right, so I wanted to move a little bit into geriatric fitness for obvious reasons. I’m old enough to be your father but I say that because there was a recent report… Well, the study actually came out some time ago, but it was from the University of Copenhagen, about heavy resistance training for retirement age folks, especially for their lower body, their legs. And so I just wanted to read a little bit about this “lifting heavy weights three times a week.” They’re saying “around the age of retirement could dramatically preserve your leg strength long into the later stages of life,” according to this research, and they’re saying that “people naturally lose muscle function as they get older. And experts say that faltering leg strength is a strong predictor of death,” to be perfectly blunt, in elderly people. So “previous smaller studies have suggested their resistance training, which can involve weights, body weight or resistance bands.” You haven’t talked much about bands, but I’m sure that’s part of your regimen might help prevent this from happening,” and I was surprised at how heavy they were asking people to do leg presses, like 70% of their failure rate that they wanted to do eight to 12 reps, three times, you know, three sets of that. And that I tried to do that the other day. That was hard work. But I have to say, and maybe this isn’t a question so much as a testimonial that, yeah, I felt a lot better and a lot stronger. And I and I will say this too as a confession, that I have noticed at my age that I am losing my balance. And another thing that I’ve started doing, and maybe you could talk about this—it’s probably related to some of the lighter rubber band type work that you do is the Bosu ball I do my just standing on one leg and just trying to balance on that. Explain what a Bosu ball is for our listening audience. 

 

Jordan Marks:

Bosu ball is a if you picture a big old circular exercise ball, it’s cut in half. So one side is an exercise ball, the other side’s a platform, heart, a hard platform, exactly. So, yeah, it’s a, that’s huge to kind of answer that question, or a bunch of those questions there. It’s a, yes, the strength training is incredibly important for the legs, for the whole body, to be honest. But it’s, you know, to reach that goal, that 70% [or, in the referenced study, 85% of the maximum weight the person could lift for one repetition; Each exercise in the heavy weights group involved three sets of six to 12 repetitions at between] of your body weight for, you know, eight to 12 reps, that doesn’t have to happen the first workout, you know, just for people listening, it’s something where you have these big, you know, your quads, your hamstrings, your glutes, basically your big leg muscles. They’re very strong, and they get strong quickly because they’re such big muscles. So if day one you’re you decide, hey, let’s try 50% of my body weight here. Give it a give it a go. You hopefully will be sore. That’s the goal. Feeling soreness the next day. When that soreness goes away, bump it up a little. Bump it up a little. That’s, um, the goal is to continue to up your weight. And the muscles will listen you. They’ll do that when you’re doing it two to three times a week. Like that study says there. So people are surprised where kind of what I brought up when I had a new client, when we do those tests at the beginning, one’s as basic as a wall sit. A wall sit is just sitting against the wall. You know your legs are at about 90 degrees. Works great for the quads. They just did a study about really helps with blood pressure.

That was just an article, but the whole idea was that first day I meet them, and they do that wall sit, usually within about two months, that time has nearly doubled. So them sitting against the wall for maybe 40 seconds, 50 seconds, usually when we do it again a couple weeks later, a month or two later, it’s usually closer to about two minutes or onward, because if, especially if you’re kind of sedentary, new to it. So those quads have been listening to you as you go out and do that leg press. You’re doing these lunges, you’re doing these exercises pretty routinely throughout the week. They have no choice but to get stronger. So, um, so that’s kind of touching upon the strength training and hitting those things, um, with the balance. You’re right. That’s a huge thing with, especially with older people, is losing the balance. 

Something I like to tell people to do is balancing on the one leg when they’re brushing their teeth. I find that’s a great thing that we do daily, ideally twice a day, that you don’t really have to add anything. You don’t have to go to the gym. You don’t have to do something crazy. It’s as basic as you already do this for the first 30 minutes, whatever you are brushing your teeth, stand on one leg, then stand on the other. Just practice that. And it’s as basic as you start to do that, it becomes more regular, more routine, and before you know it, the balance is that much better because all those little intrinsic muscles are firing every time you’re balancing and trying to stabilize. And then you hop on a BOSU ball or one of the discs, or just an exercise that’s single leg, and you feel that much better because it’s become part of that routine that’s kind of a big part of the exercises you want the routine of going to the gym, it’s not necessarily the same routine every time. You know, that’s why it’s good to mix up exercises and do things. 

 

David Pace:

And personal trainer can help you do exactly yes, they can see maybe that you’re leveling or plateauing off and that you need to shake it up a little bit 

 

Jordan Marks:

And just keeps it interesting. You know, it’s the gym. Can be everyone sits there, let me, let me, plank. Planks are great for the core, but man, are they boring. You know, you sit there so you can show them 4,5,6, different forms of plank or other core exercises that keep it interesting. Where, that’s what I try to give to my clients, is kind of a plethora of exercises, so it when they look in their book that I have for them. It’s, it’s never stale. It can always be, hey, I haven’t done this one in a while. Hey, I remember doing that. That was, I don’t use the word fun, but that was a different one. You know, yeah, something just to again, keep it, keep it interesting. 

 

David Pace:

So it’s funny that you when you were talking about those smaller, more subtle muscles firing when you’re standing on one leg on the Bosu ball. I have to say, you could all. You could actually feel the firing. And it’s like I didn’t even know I had a muscle down there, you know? Because I think, especially, you know, young men, they might go to a gym, and it’s all about the mirror muscles, right? They want the big biceps and shoulders and so forth. But I think as you get older, and I think maybe this relates to the to core health and strength, is that you realize that these smaller muscles are the ones that are helping being able to go down the stairs or up the stairs without falling over correct they are the ones that are allowing you To get down on the ground to pick up your grandchild that you were referring to. And I think those are the most interesting stories for me. And I wanted to bring up the gentleman that you mentioned last time we were there. I think you had just, were just finishing up with him. He looked like he was about my age, maybe a little older, but you said that he had, without using his name or disclosing any personal information, tell us a little bit about his story. I mean, he came to you at one point needing to lose weight, and I think you told me that he had lost up to 40 pounds, and he wasn’t any taller than I was, and he, frankly, looked great. I’d like to look like him at his age. So tell me a little bit about his story, just from a third person professional status. 

 

Jordan Marks:

So yeah, he, he and along with several other clients, which is great to be able to say there’s several like this, just someone that takes the kind of, I guess it’s you want to exercise in the workouts become a way of life. That’s kind of the goal. And a lot of times it does for these people, for a lot of these people, in his case, where when you’re working out and you’re feeling good, when you leave the gym, you you feel good. You don’t want to go home and necessarily “maul” a pizza, because in your head, you’re like, I’ve already started the day so well, you know, I’ve been working out feeling good. So he really changed a lot of his eating habits. I don’t always like using the word diet, because that a lot of times you feel like you’re eating, like tree bark or something like that. It’s a lot of it’s just moderation, you know, making eating a little more moderation, and picking and choosing, maybe the water over the soda, things like that. In his case, it was a lot of eating. And then I see him twice a week to make sure that he’s getting a good workout when he’s with me. And then he likes to come in about two times on his own. So went from really, you know, his whole life and then retiring to being like, you know, hey, I was in an office most of my life. It’s time to change this. And now the, you know, for a lot of people at this gym, not just him, this is at a retirement habit, which is a great one, you know, it’s, I see a lot of these people daily. Some even come back in the afternoon. There’s days I’m there for 10 clients, and I’ll see someone at seven the morning, and I see him at four in the afternoon.

 

And it’s a great hobby to have, you know, that’s kind of the biggest goal for a lot of people. Is, you want to enjoy the stuff you’re doing, whether it’s, again, you guys mentioned, or, I don’t know if we do, but the ice down there, there’s a figure skating down there [at the Salt Lake Sports Complex], and there’s a hockey and if you enjoy skating, go do that. If you know, whatever it is you enjoy, the goal is to get into that routine and enjoy it, and hopefully it’s something active. And you know, people ask, what’s the best cardio piece of a cardio machine to get from a house. It’s the one you’ll use. You know, if you don’t make a treadmill, don’t buy a treadmill. It’s going to become a coat hanger. You know, if you enjoy the row machine, get a row machine for your house. It doesn’t matter how weird or potentially impractical it might seem in the house. If you enjoy it and you’re going to use it in front of the TV or in the morning, that’s what’s going to keep you moving. And ideally, that segues the rest of it, where, then the moving leads to feeling better. Feeling better tends to mean you want to eat a little bit healthier, eat a little bit healthier . . . 

 

David Pace:

Drink less. 

 

Jordan Marks:

Exactly, and it kind of all clicks together. Where, again, it’s really lifestyle change. And that’s what he essentially went through, was it didn’t drop off overnight. When you first pick up weights, your body reacts pretty quickly with losing water weight and gaining some muscle, because it’s all new, yeah. So it does take a good, you have to continue with it. But, you know, that’s the goal. Is making it something that you enjoy, hopefully, and do daily in one form or another. 

 

David Pace:

Yeah, excellent. Well, I’m really inspired by what you’re saying, and I think that most people want to hear that this is a life-changing experience, if you make it that way, and I think it’s also a social experience for a lot of people. People show up at that complex, and I’m sure a lot of gyms, because they want to be around other people. They have conversations, they make friends.

 

But I guess the takeaway here, Jordan, is that you’re kind of a coach, you’re kind of a spiritual advisor, you’re kind of not a drill sergeant, but you can be challenging at times, and that that’s all good.

 

So again, our guest has been Jordan Marks. He’s a personal trainer at the Salt Lake Sports Center adjacent to the University of Utah. Thank you so much for being with us, and we’ll see you back at the gym.

 

Jordan Marks:

Yeah, thank you very much. See you there. 

 

David Pace:

 All right. Cheers.

 

Listen Here: 

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Introduction:

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Transcript:

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We recognize and acknowledge that the University of Utah is located on the traditional and ancestral homelands of the Shoshone, Paiute, Goshute, and Ute tribes. The university recognizes the enduring relationships between many indigenous peoples and their traditional homelands.

David Pace 0:17

Hi, my name is David Pace and this is Pace Yourself, the University of Utah College of Science podcast and Wellness. Today, our guest is Reverend Cindy Solomon Klebba. She serves as the chaplain for the Spiritual Wellness Program here at the University of Utah. A historian, human rights advocate, minister and educator. She has served in ordained ministry for nearly three decades and holds a B.A. and an M.A. in History from the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs.

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 1:39

Welcome, Cindy. Thank you. Good to be here. 

 

David Pace 1:40

It’s really nice to have you here. So there are some program services from the website for the Wellness and Spiritual Wellness program that I wanted to just tick off really quickly. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 1:54

Sure. 

 

David Pace 1:55

One is finding community, connecting students with over 50 religious and spiritual groups, a sense of connection and purpose, which we’ll be talking a little bit more about in a minute. Spiritual care, and I’ll have you explain that in a minute as well, as well as emotional and moral dilemmas. Not that you broke her emotional and moral dilemmas, but rather how to manage those. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 2:21

Correct. 

 

David Pace 2:22

And then you also have a series of events that we can talk about as well. But before we move forward on that. So you’re working directly with students at the U  are your services available to staff and faculty as well? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 2:36

Yes, absolutely. If we want to help the student body, we need to help the staff and faculty as well. And healthy means, you know, all those different aspects of wellness that we talk about, you know, whether it’s emotional or mental or financial wellness or you just all those things. And spirituality, of course, is a component of that. And so, yes, we’re available to anybody that wants to walk in.  

 

David Pace 2:57

Excellent. So tell us a little bit about how you got into or involved in religious and spiritual programming.

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 3:14

So I am ordained in Metropolitan Community Churches when I was doing my educational work with them.

 

So been doing ministry stuff for a very, very long time and lots and lots of different places.  In terms of the university. I came here to do a Ph.D. in history. And you may know a couple of years ago we hired a new person over student wellness, Dr. Sherra Watkins, and I had seen her bio in one of the little blurbs that we have on campus, and I read that and I went, “Oh my goodness, I need to talk to this person.” And we started a conversation and things just sort of clicked. And it was like, you know, I have student I’ve been teaching for a for a long time on the campus since 2014, I think is when I first taught my first class. 

 

And every semester I just, I have students who are overwhelmed, they’re in pain and I’m like, we have to do something. Because the connection that I could see that they were missing was that spiritual component. And so she and I started a conversation. We looked at the spiritual in this program that we knew we wanted to do something with. And it sort of grew from there. We’re sort of formalizing it, getting it, you know, structured out and planned out right now, but are already doing a lot of things in terms of trainings and workshops since we’re doing wellness, that sort of thing. So it’s sort of an organically grown thing. Or if you’re one of those religious people, it’s like maybe God’s doing something. 

 

David Pace 4:59

Better check in with Her on that. So how do you feel it’s best to define spiritual wellness and what’s the difference between a religious affiliation and spiritual? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 5:10

Sure. Good questions. I think that’s one of the most common. But I think for me, the difference between spiritual and religious. Religion tends to be something that’s come from a tradition that’s been around for a while. There’s a series of doctrines or dogmas or beliefs that are more or less organized, right, depending on the group.

 

So spirituality is that thing that recognizes that there’s something beyond our individual self out there in the universe, whatever that is. Some people, you know, connect through nature. Some people connect through different religious practices like prayer or meditation or mindfulness. 

 

The wellness part of that, I think comes in with is your spirituality indeed connecting you? Because if it’s not, then maybe there’s something that we’re missing. So spiritual wellness is when you can be in that place where you can connect in healthy ways to identify your own values and your own beliefs and live by those in a way that’s authentic for you, that feeds your soul or your spirit or whatever it is that you believe exists. And does that in a way that you come away better, whatever that “better” is for you. I think everybody has to determine that for themselves. 

 

Hopefully that’s a little clearer than mud, because when you’re talking about these concepts that you can get in the weeds that stuff. But I think that that spiritual wellness component… I don’t know that that’s intrinsic. I don’t know that we develop that just sort of out of the air. And sometimes that’s the role that religion can play in teaching us how to develop religious practice or our spiritual practice. But I think you can certainly develop that without religion as well through all kinds of different things. So wellness, I think, is just like any other kind of wellness. Is it making you better then that’s probably a sign that it’s well. 

 

David Pace 7:30

And I think it’s worth mentioning that we started this podcast a year and a half ago. based on the dimensions of wellness that the National Institutes of Health have put out. Spiritual being one of them. But what we’ve quickly found out is that they’re very integrated and inform each other wildly as well as maybe more subtly as well. And I’m sure that you are faced with that all the time. I was wondering what some of the main questions or concerns that your clients bring to you about this issue of religion and spirituality or spirituality and wellness? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 8:15

Right. I think the first is how do I find it? How do I find spirituality in my life? That’s often the most difficult part because they have to learn to define it for themselves. So helping students or staff or whoever is coming in to navigate what is your spiritual life? Sometimes people have one and they don’t even know it, right? They’re doing this thing where they get up every morning and they’re being grateful or they’re writing in a journal or whatever. It’s like, okay, well, let’s look at that in the context of spirit. Are you doing this because it makes you feel connected to something? Then, bingo, right? You’re on the right path already. 

 

I think there are some unique things about being here in Utah and one of those is that for many people, spirituality has been so conflated with religion that for people who have been traumatized by religion, and I’m not speaking about the LDS Church here, I’m speaking about our society, there’s a lot of religious trauma in our society. 

 

And unfortunately, what that means is for many people, because they’ve conflated those two things, when they’ve been hurt by a particular issue or a group or whatever they tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and go, Well, then I don’t believe anything. Well, actually, even atheists have a spirituality. So it’s helping people to redefine what spirituality is for them that can give them actually a place to heal from the trauma. 

 

So in a strange sort of way, spirituality can heal religious trauma and then you can make a choice, a really informed choice. Okay, Do I want to be just “spiritual”? Do I want that spirituality to take place in the in the context of a religion that maybe I can approach in a healthier way now? In fact, we’re going to talk about doing a religious trauma panel coming up really soon, because I think that’s just critical. 

 

I think that that’s probably honestly, at this point, the number one thing that happens for those conversations that I’ve been having is that people are like, but I don’t know if I want anything to do with it because it’s this. And I’m like, okay, well, let’s look at this in a different context. 

 

Can you find that connection? Can you find that community? Can you find that connection to something and separate that from the religion for now, in order to heal from whatever you need to heal from it? And then come back to it in a different way and say, okay, this is for me or this isn’t, but at least it’s an informed and healthy choice at that point. 

 

David Pace 10:43

You’re not just being reactive. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 11:01

If I can use an analogy, the one that I frequently use several years ago, Volkswagen got caught. Their cars were polluting a lot more than people realized. When that happened, people who had been loyal, you know, Volkswagen drivers were understandably hurting and upset, but they didn’t stop driving. They might have chosen another car, just jumped as right. But they didn’t stop driving. Right. And so my take on that is if you have been hurt by a faith tradition or a religion, you don’t have to start you don’t have to start walking spiritually. You can get in another vehicle and maybe that other vehicle is religious and maybe it’s not. 

 

But, yeah, I mean, there are other there are other ways to get around spiritually in a healthy way. And then once you do that, you can start going, “Oh, there’s a whole lot of lots out there with a whole lot of vehicles. And and I’ll find the one that’s right for me, but I don’t have to just, you know, walk everywhere.”

 

David Pace 12:33

Well, there is a big movement, you know, the new atheist. And that’s out there. I’m thinking of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. But even Sam Harris, if I might remind us all, after he wrote his manifesto of disbelief ended up writing a book about spirituality. 

 

So you have to wonder how the high priest of atheism, unless Dawkins is that, of course he’s a scientist, so we like to spin him around here. But, you know, it’s I haven’t read Sam Harris’s book, but I thought it was kind of ironic and kind of telling that maybe we need to transcend a little bit in the conversation and talk about, you know, redefine if you will, some of the terms that we have been batting about for a millennia. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 13:31

Absolutely. I mean, we so my personal walk, I have a religious walk. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 13:39

I come from a Christian background. I left Christianity for a while. I got really, really ticked off with God and said, Fine, I’ll just go be a polytheist or whatever. 

 

Actually, had we had conversations in my philosophy class when I was a student at Rogers State University back then it was Rogers State College, we had students who were not even in our class come to our class to hear my philosophy professor and I debate because he was a Methodist minister. So here I am with this biblical background but not following it, and he’s following it heavily and we’re just talking. It was hilarious, actually. But through that, you have. 

 

David Pace 14:16

Did you have to wear helmets? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 14:17

No, not usually. But there were some interesting things left on the windshields of the cars, you know. But I think the thing for me was I was able to come actually to a much deeper faith because I left it so that when I came back, it was an informed faith. It was, okay, God, I’ll stop running, because part of that was running away from my call to ministry. At the same time, it’s like a lot of things. Things were going on, but. 

 

David Pace 14:43

So you really felt early on a call. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 14:46

Oh, I have my favorite pictures of myself. I’m three years old and I’m holding my grandfather’s Bible and I’m wearing his robe and I’m preaching oh three Like, so obviously there was something going on very early for me. I also grew up in a tradition, though, that didn’t allow women to preach, so that was something I had to struggle with, was like, What do I believe about that? And came to understand that that was somebody else’s rule, not God’s. 

 

And so and so again, having come back from that, that wandering sort of thing in the desert that many of us do, came back with a much stronger belief. I am a Christian. That’s who I am and struggle with that term sometimes because of the connotations that go with it. I prefer to say I’m just one of those Jesus people, you know? 

 

At the same time, I know that my journey isn’t everybody’s journey, and that’s okay too. I don’t think that there’s one that’s more valuable and or better than anyone else’s. I mean, if you try something on that doesn’t work for you, then why would you keep wearing it? Right? So pick your path, and that’s up to the individual to know. And hopefully, hopefully what I can do in my current role is not. I certainly won’t tell anyone what their path is. I have no power to do that. I certainly don’t have the expertise to do that because I can’t see into their soul. Right? But what I hopefully can do is facilitate them exploring those paths to find out where they’re supposed to be walking. And I think if I can do nothing more than start them on that path, something far more wise and powerful than me will take over.

 

David Pace 17:27

So here’s a conundrum for you, maybe. Okay. It sounds to me like there’s one thing you’re probably not very tolerant of, and that’s exclusivity.

 

True. Okay, So what happens when you are coaching or mentoring a young soul and they are souls to you, it sounds like. And they start drifting into fundamentalism or exclusivity that that’s got to be, I mean, I’m sure you do the right thing because you’re a minister and you’re trained to do that. But talk a little bit about that because especially now with the political landscape fused to evangelical Christianity, it appears, but also even locally, Mormonism and even some Jewish traditions: That’s the central tenet, it seems like, is that we’re right and you’re wrong. So how do you navigate that? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 18:26

That’s challenging in a couple of different ways. The first thing I would note is that in terms of where we are in the United States, and I teach history, so I can go there with whoever wants to go there. We were not founded as a Christian nation. There is, I mean, Roger Williams, one of our heroes, who founded Rhode Island is founded on religious toleration. This idea that people should be able to pursue whatever their religion is, that’s the core of who we are as Americans. And it’s and it’s part of that our Constitution for a reason. 

 

So I think the first thing is to help people understand the difference. Are we talking about religion as a faith practice or are we talking about civil religion? And those are different things, right? For those people who are talking about what they believe. Right. Who may come from that fundamentalist background, What I would say to them is let’s talk about that. 

 

If you take the 100 people sitting in a fundamentalist religion, I don’t care whether it’s Judaism or Christianity or whatever, and you ask them what they believe, you’re going to come up with a hundred different answers because regardless of the fact that they may have doctrines in common, when you get to details in people’s personal lives, there are differences. Well, once you’ve done that, now you’re talking about arbitrary lines. So you believe 99% of the same things, but not 100? So what’s the 99? Where’s that 1% is going to be different, right? So we’re already talking about an arbitrariness to even fundamentalism. 

 

I think the second thing I would say is if you believe that it’s your call to convert other people to lead them to Christ is the lingo is right. Why are you doing that? Are you doing that because you want to gain political power which will bankrupt you, spiritually. But spiritually it will bankrupt you. Or are you doing that because you really believe that that’s a call from Jesus Christ and that you want people to share in that salvation or whatever. That motivation will determine which way you go. Because if you want to do that in a positive way for a good reason, you really believe Jesus wants you to do that. That’s motivated out of love. 

 

Once we have that as the fundamental starting place, I think I think right now what we have is we have people starting from the left on the right. That’s the wrong place to start. The starting place is in the center. Let’s start in the middle with what we have in common, because if we start there and then we start to see differences, then it’s like, well, okay, that’s a little different. But we’re still here in the middle. 

 

I believe we have in this country, despite all the contrary media stuff, I think we have 80% of people in the messy, mucky middle. They want to get along. They want to have good lives. They want to have lives of meaning and purpose and peace and all those things. I think that’s where most people are. And if we start from that premise, then, yes, you may have a fundamentalist belief. Okay, that’s fine. If that works for you, good for you. 

 

The person next to you might have a different belief. And because we’ve already determined that, you know, not everybody’s 100% on this stuff, right? Then maybe that’s okay. I mean, is that a threat to you? I think I think the biggest question becomes is, are you following a particular path out of fear, which for many, many people is the case, whatever their tradition, right? If you’re following a path out of fear, that is very limiting and ultimately it is that fear that will lead to spiritual isolation and disconnection. 

 

And that’s a very it’s a very sad place to be. It’s also a dangerous place to be. 

 

David Pace 22:33

I was just going to say disconnection is something that I wanted to talk about. And because it’s more directly related to maybe an actionable item in right in our lives today to become more spiritually. Well, but I sent you this article from The Atlantic. It’s the cover story.r I think it was “The Antisocial Century” by Derek Thompson. And he says some interesting things about how we have become so disconnected and solo acts. He calls us secular monks, which I thought you might get a kick out of. Yes. But he talks about how technology is actually changing our conscious experience, and that screens occupy more than 30% of our kids and teenagers waking right time. Right? In 2000, Robert Putnam wrote the book “Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community.” And since that time, the average amount of time that Americans have spent hosting or attending social events have declined another 32%. Right? We are isolating like crazy. And it’s not just because of the pandemic. Although that didn’t help. 

 

And then one last thing that I wanted to reference was Andrew Taggart, who had just five years ago, he’s a philosopher and writer, describes this luxurious form of a modern monasticism, especially among young men. Yeah. And that alone time that they do have is guess what? Done in front of a screen. Right. 

 

So this article talks about different rings of social connection, the very intimate ones that we have with our family and friends; people that we have a similar affinity for, maybe a beliefs, some beliefs. But then there’s this missing middle ring he talks about called The Village. And it’s familiar, but not intimate. We used to know these neighbors and people of our village, well … now we don’t. And I wanted you to talk a little bit about that, because religion, for better or for worse, has played a role in connecting people. And one of the big reasons that a lot of people don’t want to leave their faith tradition—I’m thinking of my own religion of childhood, of Mormonism. They don’t want to lose their community. 

 

David Pace 25:00

Right. And so but, you know, there’s religion is also play a powerful role. The social gospel at the turn of the last century. You know and making it not just about personal belief but making a better community, a better society. That’s how we got rid of child labor law, right? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:18

Civil rights movement. 

 

David Pace 25:19

Yes. So it’s. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:20

Religiously-based. 

 

David Pace 25:21

Yeah. So can you talk to me about your connection right now? Because what I was going to ask before you use the word disconnection. Yes. Was that you know, what are some of the things that you do for students in particular that come to you? What are the crises and how are they related to disconnection with society?  

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 25:42

I think, yeah, let’s define a couple of terms. There’s there is a difference, I think, between being lonely and being alone. I love going to movies by myself. No distractions, all that stuff, right? As opposed to loneliness, which is this feeling of disconnection, this feeling of isolation. Right? And this idea, the further distinction between isolation versus solitude. Isolation is being inside this little bubble where we are disconnected from something else, from other things, whatever that is, whether it’s people or spirit, right? 

 

Being in solitude does not mean being alone. I can be in solitude. My favorite thing in the world is to go to the beach. My soul lives in the ocean, so I go visit it once in a while. When I am on that beach, I am in solitude, often as I walk alone, and the least alone ever because I connect with my spirit there, Right? Some people do that in the forest where in Utah everybody looks at the mountains, right? Or down south, Right? 

 

So you can be in solitude and yet connected with something else. And that prepares you for a further connection to a person or a group or community. Right? So they’re very different things. Isolation cuts us off. Solitude allows us to reconnect. So there is that. For many students who are feeling isolated, who are feeling disconnected, the first thing to do—I don’t even think the first thing to do is overtly spiritual, and I say overtly because it is spiritual, but we don’t think of it that way—The first thing to do is find connection with other people. 

 

And strangely enough, I don’t think that’s about going. I mean, I love bowling. It’s not about the bowling club. It’s not about the whatever the first connection is, what can you do to help somebody else? 

 

If you can go out and help somebody or whatever, and it can be tiny, maybe you’re going up to Primary Children’s and you’re like, Can I read a story to some of the kids? Maybe, for you, it’s going to a retirement home and sitting down and talking with one of those people who speaking of isolation, right. The way that we warehoused our elderly is that’s a whole that’s a whole other podcast. The ways that we intentionally separate people. Right. If you can go out and do that, you’ve done two things. You’ve made a connection, but you’ve also helped to explore your purpose. And it what it does is it starts you thinking, it starts you feeling as well, so that you can start to sense, “Oh, this speaks to me, or this does not.” And that’s fine, because you’ve got to rule things out too, right? 

 

If you go out and you start to help somebody else, you are doing so many different things at once that you’re not even aware of. You’re making the world a better place, you’re making the room, you’re in a better place, you’re making connections with people and you’re exploring what’s important to you, what your own values are. 

 

All of that is laying the groundwork for your own spiritual walk. And then you can start to say, “Oh, that was kind of cool. What does that mean? Why do I feel that when I do this? Why did I like that? Why did that make me so joyful?” Right. “Maybe I should look at that?” Right? And so then you can really start that process of exploration spiritually. 

 

Now, as you do that, it’s full circle. It comes back around, it’s like, Oh, these are my values, this is my spiritual stuff. Who else shares that? And now I can connect with a spiritual community. And I’m not talking about a religious again, right. But a community of people who share your values, who want to make—I don’t want to say the room a better place. I’ve recently corrected my thinking. I think making the world a better place is too overwhelming. But if I can walk in and just make the room I’m in better. I’ve done what I need to do and it’s not overwhelming. I can do that room. That’s fine. I can do that. Right? So I think. 

 

David Pace 29:23

Sometimes just by opening the door for someone. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 29:25

Absolutely. I was walking here.  In fact, I just turned off the ramp on the sidewalk and a young man is walking by and he’s college pace. Right. So walking to his class and he barely slows down as he bends over to pick something up off the ground. And I don’t know if it was like a glove somebody had dropped. So I didn’t see what it was. He barely even slowed down. But he made that spot better by taking that tiny, tiny fraction of a second to pick up something that was litter. 

 

We have this idea that we have to fix everything right now. And number one, we can’t. And number two, if we try to do it, we’re actually going to go backwards. I can’t do everything. I’m not even supposed to do everything. Because if I’m trying to do something that’s not my calling, I’m interfering with the person whose calling it is. So finding my own space, my own path, right? That helps me to know where I’m supposed to be. It gets me out of the way. Blocking somebody else is supposed to be in their path, and it means I’m much more effective at wherever I’m at. 

 

So I think that that getting out of ourselves and saying, okay, let me start here. Let me just pick one thing a month, a week, whatever our schedules are, let me do one thing to help somebody else. And if I do that one thing, I have started the path toward spirituality and spiritual wellness and spiritual exploration. And that will inevitably lead me to a community because other people out there want that too. And I think that’s when we see this isolation phenomenon. … Oh man, our students are starving for connection. And I think more and more of them are coming around to this idea that that little box that we hold in our hands all the time. 

 

This screen I know. Right? Or that screen, it’s like it’s given this false sense of connection, I have more and more students are actually turning it off. And I think there’s a lot of hope in that. I mean, I have one, too, have smartphone, you know. I’m just as prone as anybody else to like, Oh, I clicked on that and I shouldn’t have because it’s 10:00 at night and I got to go to bed and it’s like 1030 now, right? We’re all prone to it. But I think when we put it down and literally, I would love to have students do this as an experiment, be in the library and put down your phone and just say “hi” to three people. Just say hi as they walk by, whatever it is. I kind of want to start this new trend where everybody is waves everybody in their car and acknowledges that there’s a human being out there. Right? I think it changes us. I really do. 

 

We know scientifically that the brains of young people are different now. They’re they’re they’re called digital natives and they’ve grown up with the screens and it’s literally changed their brains and the neural connections and pathways that they make. They’re different than mine. I’m older than that. So it means we have to relate differently. And it also means that we have to acknowledge that those changes, convenient as they may be, may not be good for us. And I think, again, I think there really is a lot of hope out there that young people are craving that connection with people beyond that little tiny screen. So I’m an eternal optimist. 

 

David Pace 31:40

Can you give us an example of maybe somebody that you have counseled who is struggling with an emotional and moral dilemma and how you’ve helped that student navigate those spiritual aspects of their decision? 

 

Sure. how do you make a difference when it seems like you’re just one person where you can’t do much. And one of the things that that we have talked through as a as group discussion is about how we spend our money. Where do I spend my money? Do I spend my money with an organization or a company or a service who takes that money and does something positive, or do I spend my money in a way that reflects my actual values? Do I do I contribute to society in a way through my purchasing even? Right. Got I got to buy stuff. Do I contribute through my purchases to a company that honors its workers, that pays fairly to this fair trade, that that doesn’t pollute, that it does all those things. And yeah, that takes some footwork, right, to research. There’s an app for that. There is. I have it on my phone. Speaking of those little screens, right? Yeah, there are those things out there. Right. So if we can I think if we do that, the interesting thing is we may be one person doing that, but wow, it doesn’t take many of us doing that at once. And suddenly you do see a difference, right? I mean, 

 

again, historians, right. We know boycotts work. We did it to the British, Right. We know that those things were people were you know, women were spinning the home cloth instead of buying stuff from the British. There’s so many different levels on which we can be empowered to truly make the room around us and the larger rooms better. I think the lie that we’re told is that we’re powerless, and we’re not. We are so powerful. And when we come together and share connection and community and shared values, we’re powerful beyond belief. 

 

David Pace 36:22

Yeah. I just wanted to add to that that the spiritual component to what you just suggested is not only social justice. But it also when you pick up that that can at one aluminum can. Yeah. And put it in the recycling. I’ll tell you why I do that. Okay. Because it tells me who I am. Yes. That’s yes, that cracks open this internal conversation with me about why I do that and because I know that it’s not going to save the earth right. In that moment or even 2500 years from now. But it does tell me who I am. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 36:56

Absolutely. And that’s sort of the key, right, is finding out what are my values, How do I know what my values are? I know what my values are by what I do. And that also means that I can then choose intentionally to create my values. So I think we’re incredibly powerful people. And I think that’s that’s the secret, right? That people don’t want us to know We’re powerful. We can change the room and I can change the room. There, and you can change that room. And down the hall, that guy’s going to change that room. And over there in the elevator, that woman’s going to get on there and change that elevator. All of us together have now changed an entire building. It just grows from. So. Yeah. 

 

David Pace 37:44

Powerful stuff. Really, it is. Really appreciated our conversation. And I think that these services like I said, are formally available here at the University of Utah. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 37:56

Absolutely. 

 

David Pace 37:57

Come see me particular. Cindy Solomon Klebba. And I pronounced that correctly? 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:02

You did it’s spiritualwellness@Utah.edu. If you want to email us. 

 

David Pace 38:06

And we will put that on the page. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:09

Awesome. 

 

David Pace 38:09

Well, so just to sign off here too, just as a reminder, Cindy is currently completing her Ph.D. in history at the U. And she also teaches courses in women’s history, U.S. history and gender studies.  Her ministry experience spans several states, and she’s spoken at numerous rallies and conferences championing social change and legal rights for oppressed communities. She lives in Utah with her wife of 29 years and their daughter, who is currently attending the U. 

 

David Pace 38:44

Thank you, Cindy, for being with us. 

 

Cindy Solomon Klebba 38:45

Thank you so much. All right.